The Blind Leading the Blind
One fo the great puzzles after the LAB gained critical mass was how to nurture folks new to sound reinforcement so they don’t drag down the signal to noise in the higher level forums. After much debate, we came up with the LAB Lounge which Dave Dermont (Another Dave or AD) has run in an impeccable manner given the complexity of the task. The Lounge was intended as a place where there was a more relaxed attitude than the LAB that was more tolerant to beginners and those with less experience. The idea was to nurture or mentor these people as to the ways of professional audio. In spite of the hard work of AD and others, we’ve failed on a massive scale.
A primary mission of the LAB, at least the LAB I started, was to dispell audio myths and promote a more informed professional audio community and network with like professionals. As the LAB gained critical mass in the late 90s, established pros started being outnumbered by hobbiests and part timers that lacked the experience and basic knowledge to comment on anything outside their limited scope of experience. In about 2000 the number of total participants at the LAB were eclipsed by a factor of two the number of persons thought to be involved in professional sound reinforcement as a primary living. Given the unlikely premise that every person involved in professional sound reinforcement was reading and posting to the LAB, would mean there was a 2:1 ratio of pros to hobbiests and enthusiats. The reality is, it was really more like 4:1 as not all SR pros in the biz were reading the LAB. Many of these non pros are smart and hard working, but just because they max out a credit card or two on Pacific Rim knockoff gear that they do a few shows a month with does not mean they know what they are talking about. Many, if not most of them don’t. This was the premise for my last editorial, “The Only Constant is Change”.
The real problem occurs when these persons start debating with authoritive figures in the pro audio biz with myths and inaccurate information. That’s not to say some ideas or methods shouldn’t be debated or questioned, but those that do so need a basic experience and knowledge set in order to be able to debate points in an intelligent manner. What happens after time is that the experienced people tire of getting shouted down by those that don’t know any better and stop posting. This is what harms the entire community. Instead of hearding the less experienced posters and practictioners into a community that fosters knowledge, we’ve created a subset community for further propagating myths and untruths in spite of the fact there are several “citizen moderators” working to keep the forum accurate.
There are just too many noobs and part timers to keep up with without a full time staff of knowledgable moderators to ride heard on much of that noise. Part of the problem is keeping “the numbers” up to generate sponsor interest. The fact is, the PSW sites garner several times more persons than all the pro and semi pro audio trade mags, COMBINED. A sad thing is that many of the high profile pro audio advertisers still don’t see the value of supporting the online community, though fortunately enough do that it still makes ventures like this viable. The result is you have to make the communities accessable to all in order to produce a business model that works. I’m just glad I’m not doing it full time any more. I was horrible at the business part. I could make a great online community but couldn’t deliver the requisite advertising revenue or foster sustainable business models. Others can deliver the revenue, but not operate the community effectively thus requiring a symbiotic relationship where both types of persons need to be involved. This adds increased costs making it even more difficult to make such a thing into a money making operation, or at least one prosperous enough to pay the bills and make a bit of money. There is much more to this than slapping up forum software on a box and letting it rip.
The question is, how do we remain all inclusive, promote and foster knowledge and learning without forcing those that are less experienced into another community or creating a situation where experienced posters are shouted down by those that don’t know any better? My answer? I haven’t a fucking clue, not right now anyway but I think with a bit of hard work and elbow grease we can do better than what we’re doing right now. Or maybe we can’t and this is working. you tell me.
I’d be interested to hear other opinions on this. I could be hardcore and limit access and posting to those with experience, but that hardly fosters the sharing of knowledge and training and I think is counter productive to what I have in mind, growing the knowledge of those practicing sound reinforcment on any level. I could read and moderate every single post but those that own the site can’t afford that and it would take a full time staff to do. Not to mention that I’m hardly a knowledgable source for all things sound reinforcement and many times require the support of other individuals to make technical decisions of which I don’t have the requisite expertise or experience.
So gang, what the hell do we do to fix this?
Dave
January 2nd, 2005 at 5:40 am
Well Dave, I respect you for wanting to set the bar high on the quality of information being shared on the LAB. However, don’t be too hard on yourself, as there really is no way to control what other people are going to do. You have given people a “sandbox” to play in, and that is exactly what they are going to do. Some people like to pretend they are experts, and some real experts just like to lurk quietly on the sidelines. The newbies posts can be annoying and the poseurs giving out misinformation can be really be annoying too. I see no choice other than to allow these types to participate because trying to regulate it only restricts the accesss to the knowledgeable people who actually have something valuable to contribute. The best thing any moderator on an online public forum can do is hope that the participants will be willing to moderate the forum themselves to some degree. No one can really be expected to have the time to read every post and correct it for accuracy, or suggest that a newbie do a search, or go to study hall. People that care about and appreciate the forum should do that as time allows them. Dave, thanks for all you have done. The LAB is not perfect, but it is a very valuable resource. The corporate pro audio world may not have fully embraced it yet, but eventually they will. The LAB is like your kid, you want to protect it, but at some point, you have to just let it go. That’s what happens to all of us parents, eventually, the kids grow up and do their own thing.
January 3rd, 2005 at 6:26 pm
Thanks for the kind words Marc. I see this as trying to raise the bar again, just like we’ve done in Classic LAB. To me it’s not about protecting a kid or something, but rather keeping the resource useable particularly with entry level users. While there are outstanding training programs in the biz, the training and knowledge level in our industry is woefully inadequate considering the size and maturity in years of this industry. Sound systems are getting to the point where trial and error is no longer a viable means of learning. On the other end, I recently volunteered to help a young musician configure his rig. One of the reasons he was having problems was the conflicting and inaccurate information he was getting from many sources that had no business despensing the info.
We can’t educate the entire world, but we can do a better job of educating our little part of it.
January 3rd, 2005 at 10:38 pm
Dave
I saw what you did for that young muso and I truly applaud you for doing so. That was the coolest xmas present anyone in his position could get.
There was talk some time back about the possibility of making some people into a ‘guru’ of a particular subject. I thought that would/could be the best solution of the few that were discussed. Having people like JR and Bob Lee being the resident amp experts, not only on the products they designed, but in all amplifier types. I don’t know if I have reached guru status in anything being a jack of all trades and master of maybe one, two on a good day, but there are still a bunch left that can put a definitive answer to a topic they have excelled in. This removes some of this nonsense from the moderators plate. For the most part, I see the gurus needed in Amps, speaker design, measurement and measurement systems, business, rigging and safety, electricity and safety, maintenance, and maybe gear in general. Other than that, I see you fighting an uphill battle that the forum software makes even harder.
A /. blog style of ranking is really a better system, the noobs and clueless just get moderated out, almost forcing them to read more and post less. The ranking system in the current software is completely useless and goes against what you are trying to accomplish. For example someone who has 1.89 posts per day and has spouted off inaccuracies in an astounding percentage of those posts has a ‘has no life’ ranking. Any other noob might think he knows what he’s talking about.
God forbid we have another rearranging of the deck chairs, but perhaps it would work for the best to move the lab to a blog system. Just a thought.
January 4th, 2005 at 12:36 am
Thanks Mike. Pretty much the current incarnation of the LAB is what it’s going to be in terms of technology and additional features. There could be a Slashdot moderation system added and for a while I was pushing for it. I’ve commented once about the current ranking system in The Basement as it’s really just a popularity contest and I’d agree that it’s pretty much useless.
It’s at the point in the business model of the LAB and PSW where unless added something specific brings specific revenue, the likelyhood of upgrades of that sort upgrade would would be slim. They have put a great deal of money and effort into it, but it’s to the point where they’ve pretty much tapped the market for folks that will advertise, at least under the current deals. Banners only get you so far, and we all knew that we just thought we could get some other revenue streams. That’s the unfortunate reality of it. The big media players bugged out of the Web space long ago and we basically have hit the ceiling on the business model in the current form.
I’ve been thinking for about a year on how to A) juice up the model so it’s more profitable and B) the entry level folks get better advice and training, not that they don’t now but there is way too much noise for me to be comfortable with.
At some point, at least in the upper levels the traction of the forums, any forum will gravitate to blogging. It’s been well underway in the tech sector for a year or two. It will be interesting to see how it develops in the pro audio biz. I tired last year to launch the first pro audio blogsphere but could get the use of Adsense though they approved the LAB and other technology blogs. Go figure… I discussed the same sort of thing with Julie but the pie there is small enough as it is and we wouldn’t be adding different readers, just page views and there are more page views than banner inventory. I haven’t given up on the blogsphere or the search projects for that matter, but I’m not prepared to do the work, support it and figure out how to monetize it later.
You mention the resident expert thing and on many of the other forums (non audio) they do just that and repeat offenders of myths and falsehoods soon lose posting privs. We’re talking about communities with multiple moderators in every forum which I think would be doable at the LAB.
Some good comments, certainly gives me something to chew on…
And to see about getting a better comment system plug it for this here blog. Using this one is painful.
January 4th, 2005 at 12:56 am
Dave,
As a small time operator for around 20 years, in a very small market, I enjoy all of the LAB forums and have learned much by being there. You’ll notice I rarely post on the Classic LAB, but I lurk and learn. Well, at first I did, THEN I read the stickies…..
I post in the lounge, and occasionally ask questions in the LabSUB forum, and I’m glad to have that opportunity. Some of us do read and heed the stickies. I’d hate to see the baby thrown out with the bath water.
I do see your point, though. If I think of a way to help, I will.
Keep up the great work,
Dave
January 4th, 2005 at 4:46 am
Hi Dave
I think that under the current way things work, the Lab is going to get people who know no better spouting wrong or inaccurate information, either because they just simply know no better or because they want to appear as though they know better than they actually do.
I have been a lurker for a few years and appreciate the input of everybody in the LAB community. I post when I feel I have a response to give and try and stay quiet the rest of the time.
I posted on ye olde LAB about member ranking and think that peer recognition is the only way to get the s/n ratio back to a reasonable figure.
One thing I have noticed is that the LAB is a much more comfortable place to be in now and I don’t think that’s a good thing. There was a time that anybody stepping out of line would be publicly slapped by each and every one of the resident experts in turn. The stupid people would soon learn to shut up.
I guess that a lot of those resident experts have gotten fed up of being a kindergarten teacher and no longer partiscipate as they have gone on to focus on something that enriches their lives.
I’m sorry the LAB isn’t what it used to be, but it’s still the best out there and I owe a lot to it.
Just my ramblings. I’ll learn to shut up soon.
Dave Mallon
January 4th, 2005 at 5:36 pm
As one of the original “youngest guys on the (classic) LAB”, I can certainly say that over the years I’ve definitely learned my share, and the board has been a truly invaluable resource. In the current LAB version, short of limiting the amount of posts in a defined period of time a new user can make (which could easily backfire for a newly-LAB-registered professional), I don’t think there’s too much you can do. Don’t get me wrong, I still get the occasional longing for the way things used to be (don’t we all), or have the “Hey, I wonder what happened to (insert rarely seen name here).” thought, but change over time is inevitable. I think that the Basement and the Lounge have done quite a bit to lower the s/n on the LAB (can you imagine if all that made it into one forum?!), but the random idiot still manages his or her way through the net, mucking things up a bit. As far as the business model…well, I’m the last person to comment on that. But unless some revolutionary net forum security system comes along, I think things should roll the way they are. Peer ratings are bogus, full time moderation takes WAY too much time other than a full time job, and in general, it would take a world class solution to solve the age old problem. Regardless of what you decide, keep up with the good work.
-Brian
January 4th, 2005 at 5:52 pm
It’s the Lounge where I think the problem lies and I’m not prepared at this point to give up and accept that’s the way it is. The Classic LAB is doing pretty well. The problem I see with just letting it go is that so much bad info gets passed, at times it could be not worth having a forum at that point. No info is better than some of the info that some have posted.
January 10th, 2005 at 11:06 am
Dave-
Thanks for you typically honest and thorough analysis. I would be happy to see michael tamas back (if he could leave the politics out), or Gene Pink, Don Pearson, etc…. guys that know waaaaaaaaaay more than I do and are so good at explaining their knowlege and experience.
I think that FULL, REAL NAMEs be required for forum registration… with an email address (since they can’t be harvested now) that is from an ISP or corporate domain, with moderator over-ride for exceptional cases. I also think that ‘handles’ have no place in a *professional* forum, but then we have a problem with folks who are employed by corporations who prohibit or limit employee’s outside communications… what to do, what to do?
You are right on, though.. left to it’s current form the LAB will be a dwindling resource, invaded by noobs who see the link at the top of the forum directory list. The Lounge NEEDS some bitch-slappin’ too… I think JR, Bob Lee, and others are doing an “above and beyond” service on the lounge; most of the posts there are sooo beginner that I cant reply without beginning each post with “you freakin idiot….”
as I *don’t* remember what it was like 25 years ago when I started… actually I do remember… and I had to work my ass off, read, and network with others, and spend some $$$ on gear so I could learn. I suppose that deep down I have some resentment toward folks who aren’t willing to make similar efforts.
FWIW, much of my LAB reading these days is in the archives…
Tim Mc
January 11th, 2005 at 3:23 am
I’d love to see micheal back as well. Even though I had some problems with him at times, he was a significant contributing force on the site.
Since this post has scrolled off the main blog page… there will be some significant changes in the hosting and infrastructure at PSW and LAB startin this week. I’m not going to say too much now, but I’m generally positive about the change even though it minimized my gig there at the moment to LAB moderator only and eliminates the position of a very good freind of mine.
Yes, the Lounge does need a good bitch slapping…
Dave